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5th Amendment? (Read 7408 times)
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5th Amendment?
Feb 11th, 2002 at 6:59am
Mark & Quote Quote 
??? Can't someone that has been convicted of a sex crime and has to take the polygraph tests plead the 5th without worrying about getting kicked out of the program?

My son's settlement with the court required him to perform 2 years probation and "complete the SOTP program" (sex offender treatment program) there is no special mention about polygraph or anything else on those lines until he met his probation officer ( which is a SOTP officer as well). We were shocked to learn from his probation officer about this. Having had a bad experience with a polygraph myself I do not want my son to have to go through this if possible.

He asked his probation officer if there was anything that could happen to him legally about what would come out of the polygraph and the probation officer didn't answer this question. Which im assuming means Yes.

Isn't that a form of entrapment?? Does anyone know if the Iowa SOTP program has the clause stating they have to "pass" these tests to either pass or stay in the program?

I am trying my hardest to get my son out of this without having to use counter-measures. While I agree counter-measures are useful and should be used. I really don't want my son to have to "use" this type of approach.

Thank you

Concerned Dad
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Re: 5th Amendment?
Reply #1 - Feb 11th, 2002 at 7:15am
Mark & Quote Quote 
Forgot to mention this in my first post. But another concern of mine is his mental state. My son is Bi-Polar. He was when he was young. After a while he stopped taking his medication. Now he admits he is feeling the effects of the Bi-Polar depression. He also has asthma which causes him to have to "cough up a lot". Will these two things have an affect on the actual test?
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Re: 5th Amendment?
Reply #2 - Feb 11th, 2002 at 2:16pm
Mark & Quote Quote 
I am in a similar siruation as your son.  I have absolutely nothing to hide, but reading through this site and sites like it give me an appreciation of why countermeasures need to be used -- especially if you've got nothing to hide.  The risk is, plain and simply, false positives.  I get emotional about alot of things, so my common sense tells me that I would be a high risk of a false positive.

If you feel bad about countermeasures for innocent people, just remember this: these people are using nothing but intimidation and scare tactics.  Their MO is to scare you w/ the polygraph so that you confess to something.  How do they scare you?  They tell you that you're going to jail if you don't finally pass one, or they tell you that they're going to be "very rough" on you if you don't pass.  The polygraph industry lost their cash cow when congress made pre-employment screening for the private sector against the law, so they have decided to go after people that don't have as much leverage to defend themselves: people that have been convicted of sex offenses.

If you haven't already, please download the free booklet that they have made available of this site -- it will really open your eyes -- it really opened mine and I thank these people immensely for standing up for the rights of all Americans to not be treated like this!!

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Re: 5th Amendment?
Reply #3 - Feb 12th, 2002 at 5:52pm
Mark & Quote Quote 
crimson wrote on Feb 11th, 2002 at 6:59am:
Can't someone that has been convicted of a sex crime and has to take the polygraph tests plead the 5th without worrying about getting kicked out of the program?


At first blush one would think so. Unfortunately for your son, he does not enjoy the same rights as the average citizen. The fact that he is on probation puts him in a sort of limbo between the legal definition of a citizen and the legal definition of an imprisoned convict.

The special conditions of his probation, along with the almost god-like power his PO has over him, results in no clear definition of rights that he may assert. There is certainly no 'bright line' over which his PO may not tread (within reason, of course.) For example, his PO could not suddenly decide that you must place a huge sign on your front yard that reads 'sex offender lives here' or otherwise punitive, malicious order. Think of his PO as the hammer, the enforcer of the court's order. They are totally humourless, tin gods, and overwhelmingly callous when it comes to respecting the rights of their probationees. They are extremely disinclined to be swayed on any matter of importance with regard to post conviction treatment, polygraphs included.

Quote:
My son's settlement with the court required him to perform 2 years probation and "complete the SOTP program" (sex offender treatment program) there is no special mention about polygraph or anything else on those lines until he met his probation officer (who is a SOTP officer as well). We were shocked to learn from his probation officer about this. Having had a bad experience with a polygraph myself I do not want my son to have to go through this if possible.


Are you saying he's a liscensed sex offender treatment provider? Would he be the one providing 'therapy' to your son? If so, how much is he charging?

Quote:
He asked his probation officer if there was anything that could happen to him legally about what would come out of the polygraph and the probation officer didn't answer this question. Which im assuming means Yes.


Not necessarily. The fact that he did not answer could also mean that there are no legal repurcussions, but he is trying to uphold the fear factor that there are repurcussions so that the trepidation over taking the polygraph will be greater.

Quote:
Isn't that a form of entrapment?? Does anyone know if the Iowa SOTP program has the clause stating they have to "pass" these tests to either pass or stay in the program?


Read this link carefully. Since I don't know the particulars of your son's conviction I can't comment on whether or not he must pass, but I suspect a passed polygraph is part of the 'graduation' process.

Quote:
I am trying my hardest to get my son out of this without having to use counter-measures. While I agree counter-measures are useful and should be used. I really don't want my son to have to "use" this type of approach.


He must. It's the only way to be certain. If your son is a minor I would explore your legal rights to be with him during these meetings, as well as your rights to seek alternative counseling from private practitioners. Keep us posted,

BT
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Re: 5th Amendment?
Reply #4 - Feb 12th, 2002 at 6:08pm
Mark & Quote Quote 
P.S.

Have a look at this document. With very little modification it can be presented to your son's PO and the polygraph interrogator as a legally binding document. For example:

I, the undersigned, acknowledge that I have been ordered to submit to a polygraph examination by _________, who is my probation officer in ___________. I submit to this and any subsequent polygraph examinations under the following conditions: It is my understanding that this polygraph examination is being conducted for the sole purpose of a non-criminal investigation and I am required to submit to this polygraph examination and answer questions as a special condition of my probation. I understand that any refusal on my part to submit to this polygraph examination or to answer questions regarding this examination may result in a violation of my terms of probation. Any statements that I make during this examination will not and can not be used against me in a criminal investigation or prosecution. I submit to this polygraph examination only under these conditions, and by administering this polygraph examination the ____________ accepts the provisions and conditions contained herein.

For any and all purposes other than a psychological, non-criminal investigation, I reserve my right to remain silent under the Fourth Amendment and Fifth Amendments to the U.S. Constitution should my statements be used for any other purpose of whatsoever kind or description.

I also unequivocally state that my submission to this polygraph examination is due to a direct order of my probation officer, and my submission to this examination is not to be construed as a voluntary act. I also state that it is my belief, based on my knowledge of the inadmissibility of polygraph results in the vast majority of recognized courts, that the results of a polygraph examination are unreliable and undependable.

If I suffer any damages, consequences, or receive any disciplinary action which can be shown to be based in whole or in part on the results of this polygraph examination, I reserve my rights under the law to seek legal redress against the polygraph examiner and any parties involved in this investigation, severally and individually.

I have personally delivered a signed copy of this statement to the probation officer ordering my submission to a polygraph examination, or to his agent, and to the polygraph examiner. Delivery of this statement is intended only as an invocation of my rights under the law and should not be construed as an attempt to hinder any investigation or be uncooperative with the terms of my probation in any way.

Signed,


The polygraph operator will probably present his own form, and ask you to sign it. This form will probably have language which states that by signing the form you agree that you are voluntarily taking the test, and you will not hold the operator or the department responsible for anything resulting from the test. POLITELY and RESPECTFULLY inform the polygraph operator that you will only sign his form if directly ordered to do so by your probation officer, as there are terms which you do not agree with (voluntariness, for example.) IF ORDERED BY YOUR PROBATION OFFICER TO SIGN THE POLYGRAPH OPERATOR'S FORM, DO SO, AND WRITE "ORDERED TO SIGN BY" (RANK AND NAME) DIRECTLY ABOVE YOUR SIGNATURE. Refusing an order of your probation officer in such a case may subject you to a violation of your probation. Noting "Ordered to sign" along with the probation officer's name above your signature complies with the probation officer's order, but it also effectively shows that your signature was made under duress. A form signed under threat of arrest and imprisonment is unenforceable. Ask for a copy of any document you sign.
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Re: 5th Amendment?
Reply #5 - Mar 3rd, 2002 at 4:08pm
Mark & Quote Quote 
Before I go on I would like to thank everyone for thier replies to my concerns. Even though not much could help my son not have to do this the information allowed him to be "better" prepared for the test.

Even though i did not want him to have to use the counter-measures I ended up going thru them with him to help him get thru this. After all the preparation and everything he was still nervous. And the examiner caught him very off guard.

Instead of going thru the procedures described in the Lie behind the polygraph. They asked him one control question. " Are you a residence of the United States" and then 10 revelant questions. and the test was done. He said he was so nervous during the test that after the first few questions and no other "control question" it caught him off guard. He got nervous and that was that.

My son isnt a minor he is 21. When he was 19 he was dating and later got a 16 year old pregnant. They eventually moved in together and were together for two years. Well when they first got together i quess they decided to get foolish with a digital camera and took some explicited pictures of themselves. When they broke up her parents found out about the pictures ( she was worried about him spreading them around and wanted her parents to talk to us about getting them deleted). Her parents talked to us about it. We told them we would do what we could but actually the whole thing was between our son and thier daughter and they would eventually have to " talk about it". Well instead of waiting for one of us to get something done about it. They contacted the police department. She was 16 (a minor) our son was an (legal adult). They couldnt get him on staturatory rape because of the age being within legal guidelines but they could get him for Exploitation of a minor thru basically Child Porn. so they came in took the computer and charged him with this. They charged him with 10 counts of this. 1 count per every 4 pictures they found of her. He eventually pleaded quilty to 5 counts. 5 year deferred sentence and 2 years probation. They charged him with the least possible crime that involved sexual offense. All sexual offenses in iowa are at least an aggravated misdeanor or in almost all cases felonies. His charges were serious misdeanors. Well when he started the SOTP program they basically told him " we know you have more offenses" So basically all that came of the polygraph test was he telling the truth that during his adult life he had no other "offenses" but he was lying about his childhood.

They never actually told him which ones he failed but during the after test interrogation they only drilled him about his childhood. so thats all he "assumes" he failed at. Could this all be another ploy to tell them more even if he passed? do they actually have to tell him if he passed or not? He asked specific questions about the test but they basically ignored him.

Thanks again for your time.
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Re: 5th Amendment?
Reply #6 - Mar 3rd, 2002 at 6:48pm
Mark & Quote Quote 
Hello crimson,

Although we're straying far afield, I have to ask for clarification on something you posted. If the woman in question was by legal definition of consenting age (as I understand it, 16 in Iowa), how then could the scandalous photos be 'child porn'? By legal definition, your son's partner was a consenting adult, right? It seems rather confusing.

Regardless, others will have to post about your son's interrogator's test method, it's one I have never heard nor read about.
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Re: 5th Amendment?
Reply #7 - Mar 6th, 2002 at 1:55am
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Sexual Exploitation of a minor thru visual representation in the state of iowa means any pictures of a minor 18 or younger.
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Re: 5th Amendment?
Reply #8 - Apr 9th, 2013 at 11:57am
Mark & Quote Quote 
Please don't allow yourself to be tricked!!

I personally know what that test is all about. I wasn't convicted of a sex crime, but a test was presented to me. Because of my prior legal studies, I invoked the 5 amendment and refused the test.

People must understand that this test is being conducted and supported by bigger liers and deseptionist.

What gets me most is these talk shows allow the audience ( & most People)to believe in that racket.

In all cases you are better off not taking this test and accepting any consiquences.

please reply.
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